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Author Topic: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200  (Read 2080 times)

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Offline lisandra

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Re: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2010, 11:17:40 PM »
CA is not noise, and correcting for it doesn't bring it on either. Barrel distortion is not noise either, and correcting for it also doesn't create noise, a smudge detail or loss of it maybe, but no, noise won't come from it. 

And that is exactly where I am disagreeing with you.

Correction of the magnitude required to cope with the sometimes extreme barrel distortion noted by the dp review (and others) of the Oly kit lens is unlikely to come free. To correct this requires a very significant intrusion into the image data required to build the whole map, not just the edges. In certain cases this intrusion (even when coupled with noise reducing algorithms) can amplify existing image noise - shadows being particularly vulnerable to this.

But if I'm completely wrong, how else would you account for the acute lack of noise I get when using a wide range of manual lenses - which will not be corrected - on the same camera body with the same sensor and the rubbish that litters the shadows when using the 14-42? (and I have plenty of samples) Rubbish that is less or absent when using the Panny kit lens for instance.

You were completely correct at one point - lens elements do not produce noise - so what is?
I can agree with adash on the vigneting situation, and since there no communication between lens and camera with manual lens well then there's no correction for vigneting (or however it's spelled) and hence there's no noise. Barrel distortion correction isn't without foul, I agree, but that foul can never be noise. Noise comes from the manipulation of light ( don't shoot me people, it's just a simple explanation) and nothing else. I have a theory though, one that would make us both right:
When you use a lens that can communicate with the camera, the software itself is able to apply whatever shadow recovery olympus decided was good, regardless if you turn it off or not (remember to whom the EPL1 is aimed). Without this communication between camera and lens, the camera can't calculate how much correction it's needed and simply doesn't do it. It's kinda like a RAW JPEG (using a manual lens I mean). So in the end lens can't really produce noise BUT, the camera WITH that lens can.
Again, if I was disrespectful, I'm truly sorry.
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Ian Tindale

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Re: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 12:56:11 AM »
This all depends what we mean by “noise”.

a] noise has acquired the meaning for artefacts such as hiss, grain, pops crackles and clicks, and more recently the effect of  spatially stochastic multi-coloured “speckling” in dark areas of photographs.

This is caused by the random activity of the sensors — and the seemingly random levels of sampling at the low end of the ADC conversion used — being almost as great in magnitude as the actual image-stimulated activity in light sensors (ie, down in the low levels of the signal range, what we call the “noise floor”), and, having to be amplified up into usable levels, this brings up the random fluctuating activity along with it.

b] Anyone familiar with Shannon and Weaver, or specifically, Claude Shannon’s 1948 paper “A Mathematical Theory of Communication” would have a perhaps broader view of what we term as “noise” as being more along the lines of “anything that is received which was not as it was transmitted”. Thus, Distortion is viewed as noise. Deletion is noise. Generalisation is noise. All of it is not what was transmitted, therefore it is not signal, therefore it can be termed “noise”.

But that isn’t the accepted usage among the general public. For them, it is more akin to hiss, crackles, grain and speckles.


Panther

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Re: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 04:05:39 AM »
Ian,
Excellent point!  8)

So what we have here are differences in definition vice "who's right/wrong".....

Offline mikmas101

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Re: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 10:54:07 AM »
Again, if I was disrespectful, I'm truly sorry.

Thanks for the apology but don't worry about it - I'm fairly thick skinned and can also dish it out when I'm so inclined (although I would lay off the extra bold caps if I were you  ;))

I'm curious what you mean by 'noise comes from the manipulation of light' which is a fairly ambiguous statement. I would be interested to hear more.

Ian has hit a number of nails very squarely on the head - particularly when it comes to the influence of post-sensor amplification in the signal path.

Another aspect is what the 14-42 actually delivers to the sensor. When I was considering the E-P1 there were some pics on-line of a dismantled lens (which I can't track down now). These showed that, despite the girth of the barrel, the actual lens content was pretty small in relation to the other components crammed in there. Olympus PR boasts about the power of it's in-camera processing engine and, seeing that, I understood why.
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Offline mikmas101

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Re: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 03:11:09 PM »
b] Anyone familiar with Shannon and Weaver,

It tinkled a bell - I did a course in communications (a good while ago but still have the books)



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Offline mink70

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Re: Noisetest at ISO100 and 200
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2010, 09:43:29 AM »
Sorry, this got mangled:

My point isn't that the EP-L1 has more or less noise—the sensor is the same—just that the engineers at Olympus decided to suppress it more aggressively. This makes the noise appear lower in some instances, especially at lower ISOs, but also makes the shadows look blotchier and murkier. To my eye, they E-PL1 photos also have a slightly more "plastic"  look, a la Canon.

The reason I like using my E-P1 so much is not its resolution or freedom from noise—in these respects it can't touch the Nikon 300D I sold to get it—but how esthetically pleasing its photos can look. The way it handles noise reminds me of  shooting Tri-X. (And of course I love the colors.) I was ready to get the lighter, cheaper E-PL1, but the images look more conventionally digital, and therefore disappointing, to me. They just don't have the analog look of the E-P1/2, which reminds of the E-1 I had for years. Cameras are rather personal, aren't they?

 

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